Knowing God’s Secret Handshake
Reader Heather submites the following comment and open question:
Here’s a general question for anyone — in terms of the Bible, what are the clear-cut, no way around it, ways that one knows one is saved? All I’ve really found is believe in the Son, and ‘publicaly confess that Jesus is Lord and believe in one’s heart in the resurrection.’ Other than that, it comes across as somewhat vague.
Here is my answer. It started as a direct answer to Heather, but quickly morphed into a general rant so sorry for the crude structure. Other answers and comments are, as always, welcome.
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Salvation, as preached from our Pulpits seems very simple. Our Pastors generally have it down pat – and it makes sense if you follow their logic and not think too hard about it. But I agree that if we put away our Four Spiritual Laws pamphlets and Chick Tracts and see what the Bible actually says about Salvation, it gets hairy. It is no wonder theologians have struggled with these issues for centuries.
Here are a few passages that come off the top of my head. Mind you, there are more:
John 3:16 says if we believe in him we will have eternal life. Simple enough.
Ephesians 2:8-9 says we are saved by grace and not by works. Cool.
Matthew 19:16-22 has Jesus telling a young rich man that he will attain eternal life by following the commandments, selling all his possessions and giving the proceeds to the poor. No mention of grace, or God’s favor. OK, now it is getting confusing. Are we saved by grace or not?
Romans 6:3-5 says that we will be united with Christ Jesus in the resurrection if we are baptized into Christ Jesus. This is said in the context of dying to sin. No selling of your possessions here. Again, what does baptism mean in this context?
Titus 3:4-8 says that we are saved by the mercy of God through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit. God gives his mercy when we trust in him. Do we trust in God that he will save us? That he is merciful? Trusting that God raised Jesus from the dead?
1 Corinthians 15 defines the Gospel (The News) by which we are saved. Hold firmly or believe on this word: That Christ died for our sins, that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day and that he appeared to Peter, the Twelve, more to 500 people simultaneously, James, all the apostles, then lastly to Paul. OK, so we simply believe these things – no word of giving to the poor or baptism for our salvation. Which is it?
These instructions are tough to put together, but it gets worse. For instance, when baptism is mentioned, what does baptism even mean? Is baptism necessary for salvation or isn’t it? If so, is it by Immersion? Sprinkling? As an infant? As a cognizant believer? As repentance? As witness? And if we have to believe in Jesus, we have to make sure it is the RIGHT Jesus. Is Jesus the sole atonement for our sins? If baptism is a requirement for salvation did Jesus die for all sins up until the time of baptism or also after? Do we have to believe that Jesus was God Incarnate? Or is it enough to believe that Jesus was the Son of God? Am I wrong to believe that Jesus is a god outside of the Father? No, that is clearly heresy. Or is it? OK, then can I believe that Jesus is another personality of The Father, like a schizophrenic God? No? Is Jesus a separate entity from the Father all together to form a united GodHead, much like a father and son form a single united family? That is heresy too? But what else is Three Persons in One Godhead supposed to mean? Then is Jesus the same as the Father but in a different form, like liquid and ice are both forms of water? Is that the Jesus we are to believe? This doctrine says that modalism is a heresy, is it? I don’t know, you tell me. Are we to believe that Jesus was born of a virgin, or does that not matter? Are we to believe in Jesus as Savior? Or are we to believe in Jesus as Savior and LORD?
This may seem over the top, but it is really not. Over the years, brilliant theologians wrestled with all these issues and countless more to ensure that they understood God’s Plan of Salvation.
Here is an example to consider: In my last article Trusting Jesus for my Salvation, I quoted Mark 16:16, which says that you have to believe and be baptized to be saved. Period. What do you believe? The resurrection? The crucifixion? That Jesus is the Son of God? Do we believe a person? An event? A teaching? Almost as troublesome - How are you baptized? With water? With the spirit? Both? What does that even mean? When are you baptized? As an infant? On the deathbed? As a literal confession of sins? As a symbolic witness? There is no mention of these thorny issues.
This is just a smattering that comes off the top of my head. There are other passages which mention works, baptism, repentance, the old Mosaic Law, ……
Most Christians attempt to harmonize all these Salvation passages into a coherent unit, like putting together a jigsaw puzzle. For the last few hundred years, we have been in a unique period in history. We actually have the privilege of opening up the Scriptures and reading and interpreting them for ourselves, where the poor commoners in the Middle Ages had to rely on the word of their local priest. And we now see for ourselves how difficult it is to put that Divine Jigsaw Puzzle together. After reading the Bible for myself and being as objective as I can, I honestly don’t think I even know what Salvation means anymore.
Here is another example to consider: God spent the better part of 20 chapters in Exodus giving Moses and the Israelites very detailed instructions on how to communicate with him by means of a portable structure: The Tabernacle. The Tabernacle was to be where the Glory of God lived, where the High Priest would atone for the sins of the people, and where God would meet with his people. God went through great effort to give Moses unambiguous direction on how the Tabernacle was to be built. He gave specific size dimensions. He gave encampment instructions for the twelve tribes. He gave the materials to be used in the Tabernacle. He described the rooms, the Outer Court, the Holy Place, and the Most Holy Place. He gave great detail to the implements and ornaments to be used in the Tabernacle. The colors, the metals, the types of skins, the curtains, the braids, the hooks, the pins were all specified. The shewbread, the laver, the branched lampstand, and the alter were all detailed. In the Holy of Holies was the very focus of the Tabernacle – The Ark of the Covenant, the construction of which was detailed in every way. The lid was actually a separate item, the Mercy Seat. The materials were specified, along with the cherubim engraved on top, which protected the Holiness of God in his meeting place. The uniforms or vestments of the priests were also detailed. The aprons, the breastplates, the helmets, the robes, the tunics, the …
You get the idea. I have not even commented on the ceremonial feasts, cleansings or offering instructions as given by God. If God gave Moses this much detail on his Tabernacle to Moses, written like a bulleted list that even a caveman could understand, then why are we, the Saints of the Church Age given such ambiguity as to our eternal salvation? If Jesus’ atonement by crucifixion and subsequent resurrection is the culmination God’s Plan for the Justification of humanity, the event the Old Testament prophets dreamt and wrote of, the event where Christ humbled himself to obedience to death and God exalted him to the highest place, the absolute Apex of the History of the Universe, if all that were true you think God would at least give us Clear, Consistent, Unambiguous, Non-Contradictory instructions on how to take advantage of that Plan of Salvation.
But it is not simple. It is very difficult. God’s plan for Salvation is not a clear list like he made for Moses when the Tabernacle was built. God took that effort for the Israelites, but not for us. I have to wonder why God never made that effort for those whom he loves so much. Unfortunately, we have no clear instructions and that is why we have countless Christian denominations, which all interpret the Bible, and in many cases, God’s plan of Salvation very differently. He lets us put together a jigsaw puzzle of seemingly random passages that say very different things about salvation. And you better make that puzzle fit and interpret these salvation passages correctly. Don’t just find a church creed that teaches the interpretation of Salvation that you find palatable, or rely on the church interpretation that you were born into and have grown comfortable with. Your eternity rides on how you decipher these passages. Our eternity rides on knowing God’s Secret Handshake.
Are you interpreting God’s plan of Salvation correctly? Are you sure? How do you know? Are you really sure? Are you willing to gamble your eternal destiny with the knowledge that you currently have and your particular interpretation of Scripture?
**sigh** Hand me that simple Four Spiritual Laws pamphlet, will you?
April 2nd, 2007 at 10:01 pm
**Are you interpreting God’s plan of Salvation correctly? Are you sure? How do you know? Are you really sure? Are you willing to gamble your eternal destiny with the knowledge that you currently have and your particular interpretation of Scripture? **
Here it sounds like anxiety over picking the right mutual fund? Will my yield outperform the markets? Will munies collapse in the coming year? Etc. The only fact of our salvation is if we are chosen to continue living indefinitely by God Almighty. All we can do is study and learn the Word, follow in Jesus’ footsteps, do what He would have done in as many situations as is humanly possible.
“He who lives in love, lives in God, and God in him.” 1 John 4:16
Salvation is not future but present. All we can do is trust in Jesus.
April 2nd, 2007 at 11:32 pm
HeIsSailing,
I spent years - five, to be exact- trying to “believe” in the way I needed to in order to receive salvation. It all seemed so complicated to me, too. I knew everything two dedicated parents and a concerned Sunday School teacher could tell me about Jesus and salvation, and I believed it from the start as only a child can. One day God showed me that the forgiveness of sin was not based on the quality of my belief, it was based on what Jesus did almost 2000 years before I was born.
I have been over and over this ground. I have looked at other religions, studied philosophy, and otherwise considered many, many theories. What it comes down to is essentially this: if Jesus Christ’s death and resurrection did not cover my sin and make a way for me to meet my Creator, then I am capitally screwed any which way. I won’t judge the rest of you, but I know beyond doubt that there is not a religion out there that I am good enough for. I just don’t make the cut, no matter how hard I try. Philosophy leaves me hopeless. Either Jesus is going to rescue me from myself or I am a royal mess, in this life and the next.
Jesus was not the best in a series of possible options for me. He was my only hope. He has already given me more in life than I ever received from anything else. I am full, in my deepest soul. I have peace. My life has purpose, meaning, hope. I am beginning to taste freedom. I have known Love.
Whatever I may have misinterpreted, this much is clear:
“The blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanses us from all sin.” (1 John 1:7) On this I gladly hang my eternal destiny.
April 3rd, 2007 at 12:42 am
Yet another well-written and thought out post!!
If Christianity is true, then it will be amazing that anyone even makes it into Heaven!
Just to add another perspective, I would venture out to say that I don’t really understand why we humans believe we need salvation and why we need an afterlife.
Jennypo said, “Jesus was not the best in a series of possible options for me. He was my only hope.”
I just wonder whether we as humans inherently desire an afterlife, or whether that was just something that was taught to us to want? Why do we hope for something more? Why can’t we find a purpose here on earth without a God or without the promises of eternal glory?
I don’t know the answer to that… I guess people have always been looking for gods and answers to life, but it is just interesting to me that we feel we need hope and “more” than this life (the animals don’t get hope or “more” than this life)…
Maybe there is more to life, maybe not. But if we just focus on the future, then we may be wasting all we have now.
April 3rd, 2007 at 2:41 am
Here’s another fun thought — the concept of an afterlife and such is a late development in the Old Testament, starting around the Book of Daniel, I believe. So when earlier writers speak of salvation, what are they referring to?
Even overall, the point of the NT doesn’t seem to be make the right choices and you’ll be in heaven when you die. Rather, it seems to be a current salvation, in terms of one’s life.
**Ephesians 2:8-9 says we are saved by grace and not by works** Here’s the interesting thing about that passage. The point of it seems to be that no one has anything to boast about. You don’t earn enough points and then ‘wham’ saved! Otherwise, the focus becomes earning salavtion at the exlusoin of everything else. It becomes a trophy, and rather it’s something that’s already available.
The thing I dislike about the Spiritual Laws is that they make it too wasy. It’s almost like say the magic words and you’re all set. Because there are references in Paul’s works that one will be judged by works as well. Romans 2 is an example. James also says one is justified by works. In many of Jesus’s references to hell, he mentions that caring for the unforuntate is a big part of receiving the kingdom of Heaven. Salavation is more than simple belief.
If anything, the Spiritual Laws seem to be too easy because they don’t require any effort on the person’s part, and by effort I mean evidence that God’s grace is actually working in one’s life through loving one’s neighbor, meekness, peace, joy, helping the poor. After all, if we’re supposed to recognize God’s child through his/her fruits, then some sort of effort/willingness is required.
April 3rd, 2007 at 4:12 am
Heather; The fruits come after. I don’t live the way I do to get to heaven. I live the way I do because I’m going there. Done deal. When I agreed with God about my need for Him/for forgiveness of sin, and believed that Jesus paid in full the punishment I deserved, that completed the “transaction” of my salvation. What I do now has no bearing on my eternal “home”, but it has everything to do with the peace I can know here. My choice to follow after God in my life determines the relationship I can have with Him here. And, yes, it is a two-way relationship. If you read some of these verses that give trouble in context, there is a clear difference between eternal salvation and enjoying peace with God here and now. I say it is a clear difference, but I do believe that it is truly clear when revealed by the Holy Spirit. Jesus said He would send Him and He would reveal God to us. Without the Holy Spirit showing me God through the Bible (and many, many other ways), I can not see God there or what God is teaching. So how, you might ask, do I get the Holy Spirit to show me? Is it fair that everyone can’t just read and understand? Everyone can, but the “transaction” I mentioned earlier must first be completed. Why would God reveal Himself to those who have rejected His Son? He doesn’t.
April 3rd, 2007 at 5:51 am
** I don’t live the way I do to get to heaven. I live the way I do because I’m going there.** That may be how you live, and I think that’s great. However, when this version of Christianity is presented, such as the four Spiritual laws it doesn’t seem to focus on the behavior now, or any type of change in the person’s behavior. The four Spiritual laws are all about getting the person out of hell, and making sure the person has the right set of beliefs. And the Bible makes it clear that a relationship with God is much more than that. In the sheep and the goats story, Jesus rejected the goats because they didn’t care for the poor. The epistle of John says that those who love God but hate his/her brother are in fact liars. Romas 2 says that God does judge according to deeds, and James says that a faith is dead unless works accompany it. Salvation is more than holding to a set of beliefs – it’s allowing God’s grace to totally remake one’s life. If that has happened to you, then I’m incredibly grateful that you’re able to let God’s love show to everyone. But I see a lot of Christians who have actually become more hateful and judgemental after they’re ‘saved.’ They’re not showing any of the fruits that the Bible says they’ll exhibit, and it’s hard to believe that they’ve experienced salvation when I haven’t seen that expressed in their lives.
And what’s really interesting is that the four Spiritual laws don’t really focus on the two commandments that Jesus gave.
** When I agreed with God about my need for Him/for forgiveness of sin, and believed that Jesus paid in full the punishment I deserved, that completed the “transaction” of my salvation.** This still comes across like a business arrangement, though. Salvation becomes a ‘reward’ for believing the right things, and something to obtain.
** Why would God reveal Himself to those who have rejected His Son? He doesn’t.** It’s hardly ever that clear cut. Charles Templeton used to work with Billy Graham, and one of the things that caused Charles Templeton to disbelieve in a God was watching a country suffering from a drought, and wondering why God couldn’t send rain there. He wasn’t rejecting God, but rather agonizing over how to reconcile a loving God with dying children who had no rain. In the end, he couldn’t, because of his sense of compassion. Wouldn’t Charles Templeton need that revelation more, since he can’t reconcile the two? For others, they read the Bible and they can’t reconcile God presented in the OT and God presented in the NT. My brother doesn’t believe in God at all, and a lot of that has to do with the fact that he’s had some horrible things happen in his life, and the amount of history he’s researched, such as the Asian Holocaust. Does he blame God for them? No. But saying ‘God loves you’ is too abstract for him, when he’s seen no evidence of that love. One could say that he’s rejected God’s Son, and thus God won’t reveal Himself. But if anything, my brother needs that revelation more, because of the pain and anger he’s experienced.
April 3rd, 2007 at 8:24 am
God doesn’t claim to be “fair” to our way of thinking. Our way of thinking doesn’t even come into the equation. God is holy and just. He cannot deny Himself. He will always be true to Who and What He is. God does not give us explanations or justification for His decisions. He says “I Am”. Just because He doesn’t “make sense” to what we can understand, doesn’t make Him unreal. What we think about Him doesn’t change Him one bit. If there is truth, then there must also be untruth; If there is truth, then there are those who are right and those who are wrong. Two opposing views cannot both be right, if there really is truth. If there is not, and there is only “truth for me” and “truth for you”, then why search for anything. If we don’t see the fruit, we have no reason to believe anyone is a Christian, no matter what they say they are. But it is not for us to judge who is and who isn’t a Christian, only for ourselves - it is between us and God. We cannot politicize Christianity and have it make any sense. It is personal.
April 3rd, 2007 at 8:46 am
**God doesn’t claim to be “fair” to our way of thinking.** But we must have someway of defining the term in order for the term to make sense. To say “God is love” or “God is just,” we must then have some understanding of what ‘good’ or ‘just’ is. (Which then leads someone to the “Does God do something because it’s good, or is it good because God does it?” quandry). If we don’t even have that basic understanding, then we’re not going to be able to come to terms with God at all, and saying, “God is good” or anything along those lines would be meaningless. There must be some sense involved, or people are going to have no idea what s/he is following. Our way of thinking may not factor in, and God doesn’t have to explain or justify Himself … but our way of thinking is the only thing we have. God does have to explain *something* or how do you know what you’re following?
**But it is not for us to judge who is and who isn’t a Christian, only for ourselves - it is between us and God.** I’m not judging, though. I’m looking at someone who says they are saved, I look to the Bible to see what this ’saved’ behavior exhibits … and if the person’s behavior doesn’t match up to what the Bible is telling me, I’m left with a contradiction. Behavior is a huge factor in others being able to tell what salvation is. Part of why this makes me sad is that people are supposed to see God work in a ’saved’ person’s life, so that people might be attracted to God. In many of the deconversion stories I’ve read, part of what drove people out was the behavior of other Christians. The response to that has been that we’re all sinful, and look to the Bible to see the truth. But Jesus put the responsibility in the hands of people, and told people to go out and spread the Good News. We are supposed to be able to look to those who say they are Christians, and see these ‘good fruits.’ In many ways, salvation can come across as a ‘get out of hell free’ card. In which case, salvation has become fear-based.
April 3rd, 2007 at 10:53 am
Jim Jordan sez: “All we can do is study and learn the Word, follow in Jesus’ footsteps, do what He would have done in as many situations as is humanly possible.”
Jim, believe it or not, that is what I am doing. I have not studied the Bible this fervently since I was in my early 20s. The difference being is now I am trying not to filter everything I read to make it fit my Church Creed. The Creed is supposed to be derived from the Word of God, not the other way around. I am also not tying Scripture to Scripture by book – at least within reason. In other words, I am not assuming that The Bible is a monolithic whole so that a tricky passage in Ephesians can be interpreted by fitting in an obscure reference from Joshua, so that not one jot nor one tittle shall ever pass away. I have read the Bible and interpreted it like that for a very long time, because I was taught to do so. You know what I mean. How many times have you heard, “The Bible is the unerring Word of God, inspired and infallible in every way, able to sufficiently meet all of your needs”. I am trying to put that teaching aside for the time being. I am now trying to read it as roughly 40 different authors, all with different ideas, visions, inspirations and agendas. While Matthew may have been inspired by Isaiah or Mark, for instance, Matthew may not necessarily be trying to harmonize his Gospel with Paul’s letters.
What I am finding is a Bible that is even more fascinating, more eye-opening, and yes more human, yet more spiritual than what I have read in many years. It is like shaking the dust off that book and looking at it with a fresh approach. It makes a heck of a lot more sense to me too, although much of what I find flies directly in the face of modern Fundamentalism, I admit. I still read it prayerfully. My prayers may be heard by God, or my prayers may just be correctly focusing my attention onto the Scriptures – I don’t know. If God wants me to find him, I am just doing it the best way that I know how.
April 3rd, 2007 at 11:26 am
Heissailing: Thank you for letting us along on the journey - in a sense. I, too, am reading my Bible and meditating on things of God more than I have in a while. I love having my thoughts “default” to thoughts of God. Growth requires difficulty or pain; and I am growing from seeking answers to questions I hadn’t thought of. I like things that make me stop and consider. Your questions/ponderings are intelligent ones that cause me to use my brain. For that, thank you.
April 3rd, 2007 at 11:29 am
JennyPo sez:
” What it comes down to is essentially this: if Jesus Christ’s death and resurrection did not cover my sin and make a way for me to meet my Creator, then I am capitally screwed any which way. I won’t judge the rest of you, but I know beyond doubt that there is not a religion out there that I am good enough for. I just don’t make the cut, no matter how hard I try. Philosophy leaves me hopeless. Either Jesus is going to rescue me from myself or I am a royal mess, in this life and the next.”
JennyPo, we are all just doing our best to make sense of this life, and if we are at least honest about it, I don’t see how God can hold us accountable.
Paul said kinda what you are saying, that if Christ did not raise from the dead, then our faith is pointless and we will die in our sins. But is that a life without hope? The whole point of this article is that since I find the topic of God’s Plan for Salvation so ambiguous, I wonder if there is even such a thing as a Divine Salvation. Maybe the authors of the New Testament were just like us, just writing because they wanted to make some sense of life and death. They had just experienced Jesus who probably spun their whole belief system topsy-turvey. I honestly have no idea how, but *something* happened back then. Paul, Matthew, Peter, Luke, John and all the rest were just like us, just mere mortals trying to figure it all out.
As for dying in your sins - .. I don’t know. That is a tough one. I wonder if a lot our religious beleifs come from just trying to soften the blow of death. I want to believe in a heavenly and eternal paradise just as much as the next person. How lovely to spend it with my wife and family - and yes with a Loving God, for that matter! A few years ago, I had a distant cousin who died in a freak accident while in the bathroom. She was 14 years old. Her family, who I never noticed practicing any religious beliefs, suddenly spoke of her God calling her home, angels escorting her up to heaven, and her looking down at us from Paradise with Jesus. Yes, talk like that is thoroughly contrived and nonbiblical, but it was their way of grieving and softening the blow. They wanted to believe that their young daughter and sister, who had unexpectedly died at such a young age, was carried up to Jesus by angels, and living comfortably in her heavenly home. Who can blame them for thinking this way? But is this where our monotheistic religions, at least partially, derive from? I don’t know, but I have to say it makes sense to me.
I have to wonder JennyPo, is that what we all want to think when we ponder our own mortality? I am 43, and life is starting to look a little short for me. Such thinking is comforting, but it does not make it reality. I don’t think there is any way to know with any certainty what happens, if anything, on the other side. Should I then worry about Sin, being rescued by Jesus, or being in a royal mess if I die in my sins? I have been born again and repented more times then I can count, but I am not so sure it matters any more. All I can do from here is live as blameless and loving a life as possible, and hopefully leave a small impact on my loved ones when I someday leave this mortal plane.
April 3rd, 2007 at 3:29 pm
Oddly enough, my most recent studies into Jewish ideologies and interpretation might help in some regards on the issue (or further confound). But it’s a good topic.
“in terms of the Bible, what are the clear-cut, no way around it, ways that one knows one is saved?” (Heather)
Obvious first question is defining ‘the purpose of salvation’? What it is and what we are saved from/for?
‘Following Jesus’ is the paradigm I cling to (read/hear the disciples writings, challenge/question my value system, adopt the value, then live accordingly to my new value/belief) - all things tried and tested by life’s experience (tweaking as need be since we as humans do mis-interpret or fall short on the ideal being presented).
It’s a continuous process but it ensures we validate our belief set and that we keep on doing that. It also means the road to the ‘cross’ is a value system we either adopt or drop - choice being ours 100%. It’s sacrificial, it’s kind, it’s dis-liked at times, it’s gracious, it’s determinant, it’s merciful, it’s forgiving, it’s meditative…the path is all these things and more but we have to experience them ourselves or salvation will be merely an intellectual exercise in futility.
“This may seem over the top, but it is really not. Over the years, brilliant theologians wrestled with all these issues and countless more to ensure that they understood God’s Plan of Salvation.” (HIS)
I agree this issue has been beat to death and resurrected over and over (now that’s an analogy - lol)…and concensus never gets clearer. But I don’t care how much people wrestle with the idea, have we personally gotten into the ring? What has our experience showed us in light of the written teachings?
I think salvation and the idea of conversion go ‘hand in hand’. To me conversion is quite simply ‘born again/renewal of the mind’ and it occurs within our lifetime (or constantly). There is a moment of acceptance of the first values of Christ (and it seems like such a dramatic event - being new and all to us) but conversion occurs over and over (as one value is diminshed for another more goldy virtue).
It’s an experience more or less and not something we can truly figure out. Who’s to say what they have been ’saved’ from since we cannot totally guess what would of happened if we held some of our ‘old values’ and lived ‘in them’. We can make some good guesstimates but fact is who knows what life would of produced had we never seriously considered some of Jesus’ teachings?
“Are you willing to gamble your eternal destiny with the knowledge that you currently have and your particular interpretation of Scripture?” (HIS)
I personally am willing to take that risk of using ‘follow me’ as a paradigm for my belief system. I think it made a lot of sense to Matthew and now a lot of sense to me.
However, I do think salvation parallels the passover (and other festivals) and reflects that type of salvific idea (pulled from the slavery of our own deprived minds to something better). I also think there is something after this whole ‘life experience’ since Jesus does refute the idea of the Saducee’s about there being ‘no resurrection’. So I think life after death is a concept that Jesus taught - as to how and what - your guess is as good as mine.
BUt a link worth checking is this one - about the Jewish ideas and how we might be missing some of the interpretive mark with our Eurocentric ideas: http://www.followtherabbi.com/Brix?pageID=1854
April 3rd, 2007 at 4:00 pm
THanks for the link, Societyvs. I love learning new things.
I agree with you that salvation is tied to being ‘born again.’ It’s casting off the old way to pursue the new, or the old nature vs. the new nature, as Paul states. I also see it as a continous process, because some old ways are very hard to cast off.
April 3rd, 2007 at 4:20 pm
Heather and SocietyVs, I have to agree with you both on nearly every point. My beliefs have certainly changed these last few months, and I can’t go back to my Fundamentalist mindset. With that said, I will always benefit from the example set by Jesus. Even if I became an Athiest tomorrow (which ain’t gonna happen, by the way) I would still have benefitted greatly from my Christian beliefs. It has given me a sense of morality, an awareness of my own sinfulness (even an athiest should admit their shortcomings, even if they don’t want to call it sin), and a proper perspective for my place in this world. I used to be certain what the afterlife containe (heaven or hell) now I admit that I have no clue, and never will. Like I told JennyPo, I just have to do the best with what God has given me, and continue to be grateful for that. Maybe Salvation is just that - continually dying and resurrecting our former selves? I have much to explore.
SocietyVs, as for your link, yeah I will have to follow that later on, no time now. But I remember the conversation we once had on your site about celebrating Jewish Passover along with Christian Easter. I still think that is a terrific idea, just for an educational perspective if anything, and recognizing and even celebrating where a lot of the Christian ideas about atonement came from. I think even many devout Christians would benefit greatly from that.
April 3rd, 2007 at 4:28 pm
Just wait…I learned God’s secret handshake…it’s high five up high, a high five down low, a high five to the side, then we slide our hands together and shake firmly and release very non-chalantly (LOL). And some said it wasn’t solveable - but I’ll never reveal where it came from (LOL).
April 3rd, 2007 at 5:58 pm
**My beliefs have certainly changed these last few months, and I can’t go back to my Fundamentalist mindset.** As much as I’ve been commenting and basically disagreeing with the Fundamentalist mindset all over the place, I am sorry about this. Changing paradigms is never an easy process, especially when it was partially unwanted in the first place.
** awareness of my own sinfulness (even an athiest should admit their shortcomings, even if they don’t want to call it sin),** Most athiests I know are very honest in this department. I think part of why they avoid the word ’sin’ and go with flaws/shortcomings is that sin can sound very archaic sometimes.
April 3rd, 2007 at 7:55 pm
Heather sez:
“Here’s another fun thought — the concept of an afterlife and such is a late development in the Old Testament, starting around the Book of Daniel, I believe. So when earlier writers speak of salvation, what are they referring to? ”
I have noticed that too. One thing about the Old Testament is that the Theology really seems to change around the time of the Babylonian exile. God no longer is very personal, instead he becomes more transcendant. Angels suddenly appear and are given names. The writing becomes more apocalyptic. I have not thought about it that much, but there just seems to be a general trend in the writing that points that way. During the exile, the Israelites *must* have been influenced by native religions and brought that back with them during the Ezra/Nehamiah time frame.
April 3rd, 2007 at 8:29 pm
HeIsSailing,
Yes, from your perspective, almost anything is possible, and I respect that. But I am 100% satisfied that what I have come up against is nothing short of cold, hard reality. There is a great comfort in it, but it certainly isn’t what I imagined, nor is it what I would have picked if I were designing a belief system. God is warm and dear but he is also vast and scary. That’s not comfortable to me. But what I have satisfies me fully. It’s not just a hope for the after-life. It’s real now, and it has made my life a thing of beauty even alongside failure.
I have seen who I am, and been shocked at the darkness in my own soul. Jesus gives me not only the hope of heaven, but the possibility of freedom from myself here and now. It’s not the abstract tortures of hell that strike fear into my heart and send me flying back to the only One who can forgive; it’s the horrible, nauseating selfishness within that makes me desperate for the God who alone has been able to lift me out of that suffocating morass and allows me to love, though in smaller measure, as he loves - freely, deeply, truly. I know what it is like to try and fail, and I know the difference between the struggling, scratching and scraping after “goodness” and the clean, pure, sober pain that accompanies the freedom to love as God loves. That love is not in me. I tried to conjure it, and found myself empty. But God gives it to me.
Heaven is a lovely hope, it’s true. But it’s a rather distant comfort for the mind in agony, longing for assurance and truth here on this planet. I am 31 years old, and life has only just begun to appear short to me, so it is not for fear of death that I have fled for refuge to the God who says he loves me.
God is someone that I know as I know my own father, but I didn’t know him in an instant, nor did I come to trust him by swallowing whole everything my Sunday school teacher said. I struggled, maybe a little as you are struggling. I searched, and wavered, argued, and threw tantrums. Sometimes I still do. I haven’t “arrived” at perfect knowledge. But when I let him, he speaks to me. He opens up my narrow mind and shows me things beyond my imagination. He is able to console me as my own lovely mother never could. I am secure in being understood.
I have come to know myself a little, and I’d be willing to bet that naturally, I am less of the kind of person that pleases God than anyone else on this blog. I’m certainly not special in that category. And yet I have become sure, in my weariest, weakest hours, that God is, and that he is enough - enough to forgive my sin and enough to set me free from it now if I choose. More than that, I know that if I cease to believe tomorrow, my future is not dependent on my faith. It is secure, held by a God who cannot lie.
Of course that can’t satisfy you. Of course you have to wonder if I’m just fooling myself. You’d be weak-minded if you could fall so easily back into accepting what you were told that my answers became yours.
I respect and applaud your doubt and your seeking.
But know that there is no longer any doubt, nor seeking, for me. I have found what I longed for, and I have been found.
Please forgive me - I know how smug I sound. I truly am not mocking your struggle. I know the pain of losing the dull bliss of ignorance and the frustrating inability to return to its dreamless sleep. I only want to give you hope - hope that there are answers for all of us if we only dare ask the questions.
April 3rd, 2007 at 8:49 pm
JennyPo sez:
“Of course that can’t satisfy you. Of course you have to wonder if I’m just fooling myself. You’d be weak-minded if you could fall so easily back into accepting what you were told that my answers became yours.”
JennyPo, I would not dare to presume. Honestly, what you wrote I don’t relate to, but that is just because we are different people who view God very differently. However what you said reminds me of something, in fact nearly exactly something that my own dad would say regarding his faith in God. He is of the Mormon faith, so his God is different from both yours and mine. But believe me, he has had his demons. I knew no love from that man growing up. And he was a miserable man who hated his own life. He gained faith in God about 20 years ago, and I believe that God, as dad understands him, is holding him together. Dad is truly a changed man, a man who loves life, who finally has joy he never knew, and has reconciled with all his grown children. Although I have tremendous problems with my Christian faith, I can never discount God. I can never be an athiest, I know God is out there - somewhere. I think that God just leaves it up to each of us individually, yes even the Gospel writers, to find him - and part of our growth in life, our spiritual growth and emotional growth, is that journey that we take to find him, not the destination. I think I wrote on here on another article that I used to witness to Dad with my Baptist Christian faith. But he never bought it - I finally realized that since dad was 1000% of the man he used to be without his mormon faith, who am I to tell him he is doing something wrong. God is obviously dealing with him, and succeeding quite nicely - leave well enough alone! So I did, and my church friends condemned me. They told me he was a changed man with Mormonism, but it was a trick of Satan. yeah.
JennyPo, I can get cynical with my faith at times, but it is people like you, both on the internet and in real life, that keep me thinking, and keep me from tipping that scale too far over. Sort of keeping me grounded. Remember, I am not on the internet to debate, change anyones mind, or convert anyone. Although I may occassionally challenge somebody’s position, I am just spouting my own crazy thoughts, because I believe we are all on our own individual journeys to God.
April 3rd, 2007 at 9:08 pm
I think your final point about your father’s changed life versus a profession of some theologically correct beliefs is a great one. When I emerged from my doubting period, I had come to realize God is far more interested in what we become than what we believe. In the case of my daughter, who has Down Syndrome and mental retardation, what point is there for her to try to grasp any of the abstract concepts of faith? None. But as she learns the love of God and His people, that helps her become the person she ought to be. I think that also relates well to Societyvs’ view of conversion as a process. So, I have become uninterested in hitting people with the four spiritual laws, and much more interested in hearing about their lives and understanding them.
April 3rd, 2007 at 9:11 pm
HIS said The difference being is now I am trying not to filter everything I read to make it fit my Church Creed.
Sounds like you are further along than you lead on. Creeds are not Scripture. Amen?
April 3rd, 2007 at 10:49 pm
HeIsSailing,
It was Shakespeare who said that a rose by any other name would smell as sweet. God, by whatever name you know him best, is the same. I do not say that every religion teaches about God, or that all roads lead to him, but I believe there are followers in every religion that know him in spite of their religion. He is not so wishy-washy as to fit everyone’s idea of him, neither is he limited to a single doctrinal system or creed. But he is wise and vast enough to be known by those who choose light and love and truth in every culture, every nation, every religion.
If your Dad knows God, then he knows the same God that I do, Mormon or not. I can’t say what his experience has been, but I believe there are a whole lot of people who are following their idea of “the Baptist God” or “the Presbyterian God” or the Catholic or the Pentecostal or the Episcopalian God, and the “God” they are following is nothing more than their own idea. At the same time, I believe there are people who know God, and know him only by the name “Allah” or “Great Spirit” or something equally as frowned upon, or no name at all. God doesn’t say, “When your doctrine is correct, or when you have joined the ‘right’ church, you will know me.” He says, “You will search for me, and find me, when you search for me with all your heart.”
I was taught about God from birth - probably from the womb! - and I was I only a little more than a child when I let God forgive my sin, but I had to go searching for him before I knew him. My agony was maybe deeper for the guilt and fear I felt at not knowing him. We are each responsible for what we do with the knowledge that we have.
I do believe that the Bible reveals God to the intellect. And those who refuse light, intellectual or other, will not know God. But God alone judges hearts and motives, and God is not known solely through the intellect.
I am happy for your Dad, who has certainly found something special.
April 3rd, 2007 at 11:10 pm
HeIsSailing sez:
“Remember, I am not on the internet to debate, change anyones mind, or convert anyone.”
I think this is very clear, and I love it. This is why I come back again and again. I love having my position challenged thoughtfully. I love the perspective I gain from other people’s honest questions. This is the most interesting, useful discussion I have ever participated in on such a subject, and I thank you for it. Your approach is honest and unapologetic and I admire your commitment to asking hard questions as well as the humility in your attitude.
April 4th, 2007 at 1:53 am
Jenny,
**But I am 100% satisfied that what I have come up against is nothing short of cold, hard reality. There is a great comfort in it, but it certainly isn’t what I imagined, nor is it what I would have picked if I were designing a belief system. God is warm and dear but he is also vast and scary. ** I also have a great respect for both your position and your sister’s. You have both made me think, in terms how God’s in my life and why.
**not the abstract tortures of hell that strike fear into my heart and send me flying back to the only One who can forgive; it’s the horrible, nauseating selfishness within that makes me desperate for the God who alone has been able to lift me out of that suffocating morass and allows me to love, though in smaller measure, as he loves ** And thank you for this, as well. You give me hope that that not everyone uses God as a ’safety valve.’ Because God isn’t just a cuddly little teddy bear. Part of God’s love for us is that He doesn’t leave us where we are when we come to him. He makes us grow and change and helps us confront that dark side in each of us, that we would prefer to shove in a corner and just focus on our ‘good’ qualities. But true love makes us strip off anything false or dark so that we can become the best possible, and thus glorify God in the best way possible. Like everyone else, I have dark moments and I know that there’s Someone who won’t leave me there. Love heals, but it also burns, and sometimes we need that burning so we can shed the falseness. Love doesn’t mean you can do what you want, or always get your own way. If parents raised us in that ‘loving’ fashion, none of us would be able to function in society. I don’t believe you — or your sister (I am remembering correctly that you and joeyanne are sisters, right? Because it’s going to be very embarrassing if that’s not the case) — are fooling yourselves, due to the thoughtfulness and sincerity of your answers. You both have found peace.
April 4th, 2007 at 3:27 am
regarding reading the Bible, HeIsSailing spouted:
“The difference being is now I am trying not to filter everything I read to make it fit my Church Creed.”
Jim Jordan replied:
“Sounds like you are further along than you lead on. Creeds are not Scripture. Amen?”
That’s what I said - maybe you are misunderstanding me?
Let me give you an example. Genesis 1:1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. You look up God in the Hebrew and it is ‘elohim’ a Plural form of God, literally ‘gods’. But when you see ‘elohim’, what do you immediately think of?
Trinity.
Why is that?
Your creed says there is a Trinity so it must be so.
Elohim must equal Father, Son and Spirit.
Hold on a minute, that is interpreting Scripture based on your Creed. Creed is not Scripture, you said it. I understand though. Christians interpret the entire Bible this way. I know I did.
Try and put that creed aside for a moment and just read the text for what it says. Dare to challenge that traditional view.
This is what I mean when I say we as Christians interpret the Bible through our church creed, and I think it is a real straightjacket.
April 4th, 2007 at 7:18 am
HIS, here’s a question for you. I don’t know if you’ve stumbled across this when re-reading the NT, but there are verses that support the theory that Jesus, Paul and others believed that Jesus would return within their lifetime. (And it’s fascinating reading Paul’s letters from that perspective, because then his emphasis on the Day of Judgement really hits home). If the Gospels and Epistles were written from the perspective that Jesus would return within 30-60 years, then they wouldn’t have had to really explain what salvation entailed. Along with the letters and Gospels, people were physically there to explain what salvation was, and in 30 years, it wouldn’t matter because Jesus would be back. Ergo, why go into depth? They were speaking to people that they meet face-to-face and had verbally explained what salvation was.
April 4th, 2007 at 7:38 am
Heather,
I realize you asked HIS this one, but I wanna hop in. You may very well be correct in thinking that. I think there is a very good chance that they thought Jesus was coming back in their generation. So, why go in depth? No reason to, if this is just a writing for their generation. But there is great reason to if this is the Word of God that is supposed to be inspired and passed on forever. The way some of the books of the Bible were written makes me really question their inspiration.
Thanks for bringing up some very interesting thoughts.
April 4th, 2007 at 8:35 am
JfC — the more, the merrier.
And exactly. There would’ve been no reason to go in depth, or lay out clear steps for assurances in being saved, if there was going to be a new heaven and earth so soon.
April 4th, 2007 at 4:22 pm
I’ve been reading Ephesians 2:8, and had another thought. I’m going to post a few translations (and am seriously considering getting my own blog, so I can post this stuff there) It’s 8-10.
New King James Version: “For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast. For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.”
English Standard Version: “For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not the result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.”
New Living Translation: “God saved you by his grace when you believed. And you can’t take credit for this; it is a gift from God. Salvation is not a reward for the good things we have done, so none of us can boast about it. For we are God’s masterpiece. He has created us anew in Christ Jesus, so we can do the good things he planned for us long ago.”
Complete Jewish Bible: “For you have been delivered by grace through trusting, even this is not your accomplishment but God’s gift. You were not delivered by your own actions; therefore no one should boast. Fr we are of God’s making, created in union with the Messiah Yeshua for a life of good actions already prepared by God for us to do.”
There’s an earlier reference in Ephesians about how God choose through Christ those long before the creation to be His. And since Christ Jesus is the ‘Word’ of God, through which everything was created, then we were in a way created through the Word from conception.
What if the grace passage has nothing to do with deserving the merit of grace, or that our works aren’t enough? Because the last passage clearly states that all good works done were already set in place for us by God. If we are His workmanship, then any works we do are part of that workmanship, and thus not a seperate action that brings us closer to God, but rather reveals the essence of God. The actions aren’t ‘ours’ in the sense that we own nothing personal, anything we ‘own’ is given from God. Which is why grace isn’t obtained through works; rather, the works are evidence of the grace already in place. The works reflect grace, which is exactly why we can’t boast. It’s not something we’ve independently done or created.
Does this make any sense?
April 4th, 2007 at 8:26 pm
Heather cried with a loud voice saying:
“I’ve been reading Ephesians 2:8, and had another thought. I’m going to post a few translations (and am seriously considering getting my own blog, so I can post this stuff there) It’s 8-10.”
Yeah, I gotta tell you, you are obviously well read and have studied this material very well. You have been an encouragement to me, so if you want to start your own blog, I will look forward to reading and contributing!
My favorite translation is New American Standard - I read Eph 2:8-10 and did not gain much additional from it. What is New Living Translation? Is that a paraphrase? Have you ever checked out Rick Warren’s favorite paraphrase “The Message”? Boy, does that one ever just rewrite the text to iron out the difficulties. Check this out:
Now God has us where he wants us, with all the time in this world and the next to shower grace and kindness upon us in Christ Jesus. Saving is all his idea, and all his work. All we do is trust him enough to let him do it. It’s God’s gift from start to finish! We don’t play the major role. If we did, we’d probably go around bragging that we’d done the whole thing! No, we neither make nor save ourselves. God does both the making and saving. He creates each of us by Christ Jesus to join him in the work he does, the good work he has gotten ready for us to do, work we had better be doing. - Ephesians 2:7-10 (The Message)
“the good work he has gotten ready for us to do, work we had better be doing.”????? Wow Heather, your problem is ironed out and solved right there. God just has the work ready for us to do. Not pre-ordained. Right?
OK seriously, I think you are probably right, but could probably make the same argument with the evidence from the Fruit of the Spirit in Galatians 5. But the works being Pre-Ordained?? That is something. I looked up similar passages to Eph 2:8-10 (Col 1:10, Col 3:9-10, 2 Cor 5:17, 2 Cor 9:8), and while there was salvation by grace, there was no mention of evidence by any pre-ordained works. Is that unique to this passage in Ephesians? You know, a lot of modern scholars really question Paul’s authorship of Ephesians I guess because of anomalies, maybe like this one? I dunno, very intersting though, and more prooftexts for the Calvinists I guess.
April 4th, 2007 at 10:00 pm
**Have you ever checked out Rick Warren’s favorite paraphrase “The Message”? Boy, does that one ever just rewrite the text to iron out the difficulties.**
I have come to realize that the writers of paraphrase Bibles are just criminals! I mean, why have us read and study the actual (or nearly actual) words written in the Bible, when we can have one narrow interpretation force-fed to us!? My actual Bible is a New Living Translation; I barely ever use it. It’s bible.crosswalk.com for me. I too like the New American Standard the best, but its online version capitalizes all the letters in prophecies and there are footnote links in the middle of the text everywhere. It just looks sloppy and can be distracting. So when I am reading long passages (or whole books, like for my Bible study), I use the NIV at crosswalk. Also, using the online Bible allows me to quickly and easily check out other translations. I guess that is what you get when you cross a Bible study with a Computer Science major
April 5th, 2007 at 8:37 am
**That is something. I looked up similar passages to Eph 2:8-10 (Col 1:10, Col 3:9-10, 2 Cor 5:17, 2 Cor 9:8), and while there was salvation by grace, there was no mention of evidence by any pre-ordained works.** I’m not sure if I’d use the word ‘pre-ordained.’ It’s more of the Ephesians passage saying that we can’t do anything apart from God, or that we have no power of our own, but only what God gives us. Because the other interesting thing about that passage is how Paul (or the writer using Paul’s name) says that no one should boast. Does that mean that people were boasting that they earned salvation? Because then it becomes like a checklist, and the whole point becomes obtaining salvation, rather than letting yourself become ‘a new creation.’ The focus shifts, and it becomes about a person elevating themselves over others.
The good works are because we are God’s workmanship, so it’s not like we can come along and surprise God, and have Him go, “Wow, that person totally blew me away with that good work! It came completely out of left field!” Salvation by grace is about letting to and letting God work through you. If grace is ‘earned’ by works, then it’s about manipuating the system, and earning enough brownie points, and then probably an inflated ego.
But I also don’t think the passage is saying, “You’re not good enough for grace, which is why it can never be earned.” It’s saying, why are you worrying about the works? Salvation’s there, grace is there, stop putting the focus on you.
And this would lend credence to James’ ‘justified by works’ because it’s evidence that one has surrendered to grace. But here’s the thing about this — based on how this is phrased, people can be letting grace work through them without being a Christian. People who are kind, loving, meek, backing up their ‘faith’ with actions are people who have experienced the Spirit, and who reflect grace. So grace isn’t just about belief/trust — it also needs to be reflected through actions, as Ephesians later tells us to imitate God and cast off rage, bitterness, envy and all that other stuff.
April 5th, 2007 at 8:41 am
I use the NASB - since it’s the free Gideon’s version I recieved - also I really like the translation for 2 reasons:
(1) It italicizes words that are ‘added in’ to make the passage more whole; and
(2) It footnotes passages that are questionable and meaning that are also questionable
It gives me the chance to look closely at everything and make some of those decisions on my own (based on context). I guess I enjoy their transparency.
“the works are evidence of the grace already in place. The works reflect grace, which is exactly why we can’t boast. It’s not something we’ve independently done or created…Does this make any sense?” (Heather)
I like your traing of thought on the issue (that’s for sure) and I think it very well thought out. If I get you correctly, we kind of walk into the ‘grace of God’ and all that we recieve is a result of what God has already put in place? Our mandate is to accept that grace and see the goodness of God (which is always there around us - sometimes untapped). I can’t quite explain it but the idea you present is a very nice perspective. Maybe this is part of ‘and all things shall be added to you’ (in seeking God).
April 5th, 2007 at 9:37 am
** If I get you correctly, we kind of walk into the ‘grace of God’ and all that we recieve is a result of what God has already put in place? Our mandate is to accept that grace and see the goodness of God (which is always there around us - sometimes untapped). ** Basically, yes. I’m approaching this from the perspective that God is all-present. In which case, the grace is already there, but we don’t always ’see’ that. We just need to change our viewpoint in order to ’see’ the grace that’s already in place. I think that’s part of why gratitude is so key in the NT. It helps one focus on being grateful for that good that God does, and thus being more open to seeing that good in action.
April 6th, 2007 at 2:12 am
About 3 years ago I dropped into a black hole – four months of absolute terror. I wanted to end my life, but somehow [Holy Spirit], I reached out to a friend who took me to hospital. I had three visits [hospital] in four months – I actually thought I was in hell. I imagine I was going through some sort of metamorphosis [mental, physical & spiritual]. I had been seeing a therapist [1994] on a regular basis, up until this point in time. I actually thought I would be locked away – but the hospital staff was very supportive [I had no control over my process]. I was released from hospital 16th September 1994, but my fear, pain & shame had only subsided a little. I remember this particular morning waking up [home] & my process would start up again [fear, pain, & shame]. No one could help me, not even my therapist [I was terrified]. I asked Jesus Christ to have mercy on me & forgive me my sins. Slowly, all my fear has dissipated & I believe Jesus delivered me from my “psychological prison.” I am a practicing Catholic & the Holy Spirit is my friend & strength; every day since then has been a joy & blessing. I deserve to go to hell for the life I have led, but Jesus through His sacrifice on the cross, delivered me from my inequities. John 3: 8, John 15: 26, are verses I can relate to, organically. He’s a real person who is with me all the time. I have so much joy & peace in my life, today, after a childhood spent in orphanages [England & Australia]. God LOVES me so much. Fear, pain, & shame, are no longer my constant companions. I just wanted to share my experience with you [Luke 8: 16 – 17].
Peace Be With You
Micky
April 6th, 2007 at 10:51 am
Micky sez:
“I deserve to go to hell for the life I have led, but Jesus through His sacrifice on the cross, delivered me from my inequities.”
Thanks for sharing your story, Micky. It sounds like you have been through a lot, and I am glad that you came out of it. Remember that I don’t think you, or anyone else deserves everlasting hell. I am glad that you no longer have that guilt. Take Care.
April 7th, 2007 at 12:05 am
HeIsSailing,
We often use the word “deserve” to refer to someone who has done something to merit a reward or a punishment. It can also be used to mean that something is “due” to us, whether owing to our own actions or not.
It’s true, while Adam and Eve chose sin, none of us chose to be born sinners. We couldn’t help it. So why would God punish us for what we can’t help?
He won’t. God, seeing that we had been “sold out”, so to speak, took responsibility himself for our situation. It wasn’t his fault, but he was the only one with the power to do anything about it, so being God, he took responsibility. It wasn’t an easy thing for him to do. He couldn’t just “wipe the slate clean”. He had to accept his own punishment in order to rescue us, not from our choice but from Adam’s. The difficult thing about humans being given choice is that it is so powerful, and our choices never affect only us - they affect all the people we come in contact with. Just as a father can dramatically affect his children’s lives, even before they are born, Adam’s choice left us ’sold under sin’.
God didn’t leave us there, because he is God. Just as he is fair enough to have to punish sin, he is fair enough to see our predicament and to take responsibility for his creation.
Although an eternity in hell was our “due” under sin, it isn’t our actions that made us “deserve” such a destiny.
God, at great cost to himself, rescued us from a destiny we didn’t choose. He opened to door to our prison. Micky went through. People who want to admit they have a problem are seeking and finding freedom from God in every nation, culture, and religion.
The door is still open and God is revealing his plan to anyone who will listen. If we refuse his rescue, we can blame Adam, or we can blame ourselves, but we can’t blame God.
Micky, I am so glad you are free.
April 7th, 2007 at 7:29 am
**Although an eternity in hell was our “due” under sin, it isn’t our actions that made us “deserve” such a destiny.** Here’s my question, though. Where in the NT does it say that we ‘deserve’ to go to hell by default? Or that it’s our ‘due?’ Paul does say that the wages of sin lead to death, and that sin/death came from one man. But he doesn’t say that an eternity in hell was also a result of that. Jesus does mention hell, yes. But he mentions two destinations, and the one where he uses ‘Gehenna’ is often used in an allegorical context, such as cutting off a hand/taking out an eye, calling the Pharisees a ‘brood of vipers.’ There is Revelations, but that book is so metaphorical and symbolic to begin with that it’s difficult to determine how to interpret that book.
Plus, when you look at Acts, which is our best example of the disicples converting people, they never mention that people should convert lest they go to hell. Hell never even comes up.
I’m with HIS — no one deserves an eternity in hell. What would it accomplish? Imagine how much one would have to hate another person in order to condemn them to suffer for an eternity. Especially someone who is trapped in sin through no fault of his/her own. If someone is born inherently sinful and inherently rebellious, then it’s almost like holding a mentally slow person responsible for not being able to solve calculus.
April 7th, 2007 at 7:30 am
Sorry — that Anon comment was from me.
April 7th, 2007 at 11:23 am
I will jump in here too, if I may. This discussion has given me much to read. I know what I have experienced and what I believe to be true. But it is always good to dig about with questions. These have sent me to my Bible - “Why do I really believe that?” is always a profitable question. I have a few verses that seem to challenge your view of no eternal punisment. I say “seem to” because I’m sure you have considered these, but I just wondered how they fit in. Here they are:
John8:24 (Jesus is talking to the Pharisees), “I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.” - I really think this is the heart of the matter. Rejecting Jesus is the one sin that leads to Hell. All others have been paid for-when He died on the cross. If we reject Him, there is no payment for that sin. In John 8, Jesus goes on to explain to the Pharisees that, it is evident that their “father” is the devil because of their unbelief. Their refusal to believe God puts them on the same level as the devil. And we are told in Matthew 25:41 that the everlasting fire was prepared for the devil and his angels. Jesus tells the Pharisees that, although they are Abraham’s seed physically, if they were “Abraham’s seed” spiritually, they would have known Him, because they would know His Father. In John 5:46, Jesus tells the Jews that if they believed Moses, they would have believed Him, because Moses wrote of Him. If we believe on Jesus, and God, through Him, we will see Him in the Old Testament. If we do not, we will be like the Pharisees, and not see Him there, even though we had them memorized from our youth.
Isaiah 53 - this whole chapter clearly states that our sin was laid on Jesus; “He was bruised for our iniquities…with His stripes we are healed.” and “…when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin…”.
Just wondering what your thoughts were on these.
April 7th, 2007 at 12:13 pm
**“I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.” - I really think this is the heart of the matter. Rejecting Jesus is the one sin that leads to Hell.** But that’s not what the verse says. Because does dying in one’s sins automatically lead to hell? If so, which one? Again, when Jesus uses ‘Gehenna,’ it’s overall used in an allegorical fashion. ‘Sheol’ is something that was used in the OT, which also stood for grave/pit/underworld. Given that there’s no clear identification of ‘hell,’ it’s more of sin leads to pain/punishment from the nature of sin itself. Because does dying in one’s sins mean that one goes to eternal torment, or just that sin hasn’t been dealt with here?
Jesus was addressing many of his examples, such as what you picked, to the Pharisees. Those were the people that followed the letter of the law, not the spirit. They didn’t focus on justice or mercy, but made sure that people didn’t break the Sabbath. He wasn’t speaking to people as a whole, but the religious hypocrites — the Pharisees, who believed that only their rules paved the way to God.
**And we are told in Matthew 25:41 that the everlasting fire was prepared for the devil and his angels. ** The word used for ‘everlasting’ was ‘aionos’ (I may be spelling that wrong), and meant more of ‘age-lasting.’ Plus, the point to that wasn’t that hell/heaven exist, but more of taking care of the poor is paramount. Not loving the poor is like not loving Jesus and that is the point of the Matthrew example.
Some of the reasons why I don’t — there’s a psalms that asks where the person can go to escape God — if I go up to heaven, God’s there, if I descend to Sheol, God’s there. The point to that psalms is that God is always there and always guiding. There’s a verse in one of the Corinthians that God will eventually be all-in-all, after Christ has dealt with all enemies, the last enemy being death. There’s another verse that says every knee shall bow to Jesus, and the greek word using bow means willingly submitting to Jesus, not being forced to bow. There’s also parables like the lost sheep or the woman searching for the coin — God doesn’t stop until He finds every last child. In the Sermon on the Mount, Jesus says that people are like the light on the hill, or the salt of the earth. He was speaking to all those people while they were just listening to him, way before they asked for forgiveness or said the right things.
Again, I don’t see that forgiveness of sins required that Jesus be punished, as seen by the Prodigal Son. I see the cross as necessary to show the absolute end of sin, and of the power of God’s love to overcome anything and everything. I do believe all the sin of the world was placed on Jesus, but in a metaphorical sense, so that God dealt with it for good, showing that nothing stands in our way to Him. The point of the cross is to reconcile us to God, to show thenature of God and that His justice does not allow Him to leave His people oppressed. It’s not to give Him a way to forgive us. Paul also makes a mention in Romans that our old selves were crucified along with Jesus, in order to allow us a new creation. Our sin was laid on Jesus to show that our sin could be crucified, that we could be seen as the children of God. THe cross crucified the old man, and allowed the new man, God’s image and likeness, to shine forth. I see the cross as God’s biggest way of showing how sin won’t have the last word. What sin does is ultimately lead to destruction, as shown by the cross. And then the Resurrection shows that God says sin/death never have the last word.
April 7th, 2007 at 12:42 pm
Heather,
You are right that “hell” is not the word used to refer to the eternal destiny of those who refuse release from sin. Hell is, as HeIsSailing has already pointed out in an earlier post, a waiting place for the final judgement. It is also sometimes used as a synonym for “total destruction”. I used the word hell so as not to complicate the issue, but it was a bad choice - this kind of “simplification” is exactly what complicates the issue. Technically, the Bible uses “the second death”, or “the lake of fire” to describe this place, but it does say that hell will be cast into the lake of fire.
The lake of fire is the place of destruction for sin. It is not our due as a punishment for something we have done - it is the result of sin. Satan lied to Eve and convinced her to use her God-given power to love for sin instead. Her choice affected us, one and all. We all received sin, and thus the end destination of sin. We didn’t choose to be sinners, but through Jesus, we can choose not to be. Sin took away our power of choice, but God restored it. He can’t make the choice for us, but he can give us something else to choose. It was Eve’s choice that put us under Satan’s power. Because of Jesus, we can be free, but only at our choice.
The choice we make is not as a result of knowing the Bible, and God’s plan. It is not intellectual, but personal. It means choosing what we know of God instead of what we know of sin. One person may know much of both. Another may know little of either. What we know is not the important thing, but how we respond is.
Heather sez:
“Plus, when you look at Acts, which is our best example of the disicples converting people, they never mention that people should convert lest they go to hell. Hell never even comes up.”
This is true, hell is mentioned as an entity in Acts, but it is not the subject of the apostles’ preaching. They are much more concerned with the freeing power of Christ’s death and resurrection. Hell, and rescuing people from it, is not the focus of the Bible.
However, the New Testament does address the reality of hell:
2 Peter 2:4 -
For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;
Hebrews 2:2-3 -
For if the word spoken by angels was steadfast, and every transgressionand disobedience received a just recompense of reward; How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation?
Revelation 20:12 -
And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books.
Revelation 20:15 -
And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.
Revelation 21:1,27 -
Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth… But there shall by no means enter it anything that defiles, or causes an abomination or a lie, but only those who are written in the Lamb’s Book of Life.
The Bible is clear that God does not choose for anyone to go to hell, but that his ability to save them from it is dependant on a moral choice (not intellectual knowledge):
2Peter 3:9 -
The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.
April 7th, 2007 at 7:41 pm
Jenny,
**this kind of “simplification” is exactly what complicates the issue. ** Fun, isn’t it.
**This is true, hell is mentioned as an entity in Acts, but it is not the subject of the apostles’ preaching. They are much more concerned with the freeing power of Christ’s death and resurrection. Hell, and rescuing people from it, is not the focus of the Bible.** Thank you for saying this. Too often, the focus in modern preaching does seem to be saving people from hell. But the fact that it’s not a main point when preaching leads me to believe that there wasn’t an eternal torment, or they would’ve mentioned it quite a bit. Rather, the focus was, as you said, to free people, or help them recognize that they were free.
**It was Eve’s choice that put us under Satan’s power. Because of Jesus, we can be free, but only at our choice.** I suppose the difference in our viewpoint is that I don’t regard our choice as stronger than God’s willingness to save, or love for His creation that they be free. I do believe at some point, all will be reconciled to God. That’s how I see the cross — God showing that nothing can overcome His love, not even human stubborness. No matter what choices I might make, my parents would never wash their hands of me, or seperate themselves from me. And if I was making some sort of choice that placed me in seperation to the point where I would be tormented like the torment in hell, then they’d step in because I clearly didn’t know what I was doing. It would be like not stepping in for a child who constantly shoves his hand in the flame. If we argue that he makes the choice to do that and thus should be left alone, there’s no way we can say the child is behaving rationally. They would find it unloving and unjust. How can I expect God to be different, when Jesus teaches to turn the other cheek, and to always forgive? If someone brutalized me, and then I was offered a choice to do the same to them, and I said yes … how would that make me any better than that person? (note: I am not saying that choice would be easy, nor am I trivalizing the situation). That’s how I view the concept of hell — the Bible tells me that God is higher than that, and that all will be reconciled to Him, eventually.
I do believe there is some sort of punishment for sins, and in many ways, we live it right now. For some of the things I’ve been through, there has been tremendous freedom when I was able to let go. The punishment came from the sin itself.
**2 Peter 2:4 -
For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;** The word for ‘hell’ in this verse is ‘tartaros,’ which is a temporary destination, though, until the Judgement.
Here’s the thing about Revelations, though. The new Heaven and the New Earth that’s built after things are thrown in the lake of fire — the gates are never closed. Ever. To me, that implies that anyone stuck outside is welcomed in, once they devest themselves of what’s keeping them out. They aren’t shut out, if the Gate is never closed. Not only that, in Chapter 21, it makes mentions of the kings of the earth bringing their splendor into the city, and the nations walking in its light — these are the same kings of the earth who were on Babylon’s side in Chapter 18. ‘Kings of the earth’ and ‘nations’ were used as enemies of Christ in all else in Revelations.
As for the Book of Life — what if everyone’s name is already written in it, we just need to claim it? At a certain ‘growth’ point, people like Abraham, Israel, Paul, Peter — they all received ‘new’ names, which indicated a huge change for them. So the ‘old nature’ isn’t written in there, but the ‘new/true nature.’ We just have to recognize/claim that nature, and I believe all will, eventually.
Yes, this is developed through both logic and emotion. But when I look at the purpose of punishment in the Bible, it was supposed to return people to God. An eternal place of seperation for an infinite punishment doesn’t do that.
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