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]]> By: Jon: arrgjonsmad http://heissailing.edublogs.org/2007/04/10/to-be-like-the-most-high/#comment-812 Jon: arrgjonsmad Thu, 26 Apr 2007 18:01:30 +0000 http://heissailing.edublogs.org/2007/04/10/to-be-like-the-most-high/#comment-812 Ok, i only read 5 paragraphs before saying this, but you said something that kind of applies to my view. when you said "Who does not want to believe in an eternal paradise, a paradise with no sickness or pain, an eternity with my family and loved ones..." you pointed out why i didnt want to believe it also.My sister died and i knew she didnt believe in God. She was the only REAL part of my family that i knew because i was adopted. I only got to see her a few times so i didnt really get to know much about her. That made me hate the fact that i wouldnt ever get to see her again. Ok, i only read 5 paragraphs before saying this, but you said something that kind of applies to my view. when you said “Who does not want to believe in an eternal paradise, a paradise with no sickness or pain, an eternity with my family and loved ones…” you pointed out why i didnt want to believe it also.My sister died and i knew she didnt believe in God. She was the only REAL part of my family that i knew because i was adopted. I only got to see her a few times so i didnt really get to know much about her. That made me hate the fact that i wouldnt ever get to see her again.

]]> By: jennypo http://heissailing.edublogs.org/2007/04/10/to-be-like-the-most-high/#comment-645 jennypo Tue, 17 Apr 2007 07:42:36 +0000 http://heissailing.edublogs.org/2007/04/10/to-be-like-the-most-high/#comment-645 DagoodS, Don't stop asking for the evidence. It only stands to reason that if we argue, we must produce evidence. No matter how strongly we believe, no matter how surely we know, it is impossible to communicate without something to back it up. I wish I knew enough about archaeology to give you the evidence you deserve in this area, but I don't. That should have shut my mouth to begin with. But even were I able to produce enough evidence to change your mind, it would accomplish nothing except make me right. No, this is not the message I have to tell. I am here because I have met with a God who is vastly different from the God presented by popular Christianity. It is not my purpose to tell people that God exists - instead, I hope my experience of WHO that God is, will give people enough hope, enough hunger, to continue on their own road to knowing the God I know. Demand evidence. Demand reason. Without it, we have no measuring board. Don't let anyone tell you that reason has to be sacrificed in order to know God. Logic alone is not enough, but for some of us, it's the only place to start, and you certainly won't know the God I know by turning reason off. You are absolutely right that if Jesus didn't get history correct, then you have no reason to accept his statements about the law and the prophets. He didn't say he was a nice guy here to tell us a good way to live. He said he is God. If he is God, then every one of his statements has to be true, and holding him to that is respectful to him, not arrogant. DagoodS,
Don’t stop asking for the evidence. It only stands to reason that if we argue, we must produce evidence. No matter how strongly we believe, no matter how surely we know, it is impossible to communicate without something to back it up. I wish I knew enough about archaeology to give you the evidence you deserve in this area, but I don’t. That should have shut my mouth to begin with. But even were I able to produce enough evidence to change your mind, it would accomplish nothing except make me right.
No, this is not the message I have to tell.
I am here because I have met with a God who is vastly different from the God presented by popular Christianity. It is not my purpose to tell people that God exists - instead, I hope my experience of WHO that God is, will give people enough hope, enough hunger, to continue on their own road to knowing the God I know.
Demand evidence. Demand reason. Without it, we have no measuring board. Don’t let anyone tell you that reason has to be sacrificed in order to know God. Logic alone is not enough, but for some of us, it’s the only place to start, and you certainly won’t know the God I know by turning reason off. You are absolutely right that if Jesus didn’t get history correct, then you have no reason to accept his statements about the law and the prophets. He didn’t say he was a nice guy here to tell us a good way to live. He said he is God. If he is God, then every one of his statements has to be true, and holding him to that is respectful to him, not arrogant.

]]> By: Jim Jordan http://heissailing.edublogs.org/2007/04/10/to-be-like-the-most-high/#comment-643 Jim Jordan Mon, 16 Apr 2007 20:52:49 +0000 http://heissailing.edublogs.org/2007/04/10/to-be-like-the-most-high/#comment-643 Hi DagoodS I see you can sympathize with many Christians' frustration when given the "most scholars say..." canard. This is the same thing we hear in secular circles supporting the dubious and the unprovable. **Jesus took the history of Exodus literally. John 3:14. ** I don't see that. Jesus indeed pointed to it but He also pointed to Jonah's story as an example, and not many scholars have taken that literally at all, then or now. I can refer to the Good Samaritan as an example of how to act knowing full well that it was never determined that such a man or such an incident actually existed. It's safe to say that Jesus made it up. It was a parable. **If Jesus did not get history correct—why should I accept his statements about the Law and Prophets as valid? ** 1) Was history the question or was Jesus' truth the question? I'd say the latter was at issue. I don't see a great error in not mentioning the literary writings. [I recommend posting a definition of what <i>inerrancy</i> means to you.] 2) You seem so sure that historical evidence, <i>future</i> historical evidence, will tell a far different tale, one that puts Moses into the realm of fiction. This is still a great assumption. The truth is that Jesus used parables, and these stories are common in the Bible. By your measuring stick, wouldn't these parables make the Bible errant because they were not factual? On those grounds, I would find the Bible indefensible. Most of the historical narrative in its pages would have to be considered fables until bit by bit it is backed up by archaeological discoveries. And then what? What if we find in the meantime that they are good fables? That we can apply their truths and see things fall into place around us? I don't see how anyone could walk in the light of Christianity while waiting for a more accurate historical confirmation of its principal facts. The fact is that the infallibility of Christ's teachings are what attracts us to Christianity. Paul Tillich and Thomas Merton wrote volumes on Christianity yet not one book on archaeological data to back up the Bible's historical claims. The answer as to why that is is simple; the evidence was in their own lives. You and HIS are on an exciting journey to look for the historical roots of what the Bible claims. I'm with you 100% on that. It's healthy for Christians to keep up with new discoveries both in science and archaeology. But we can't make that the rock of our faith because it's very <i>crumbly</i>. We don't want to be the racehorse that gets stuck in the starting gate. Blessings. Hi DagoodS
I see you can sympathize with many Christians’ frustration when given the “most scholars say…” canard. This is the same thing we hear in secular circles supporting the dubious and the unprovable.

**Jesus took the history of Exodus literally. John 3:14.
**

I don’t see that. Jesus indeed pointed to it but He also pointed to Jonah’s story as an example, and not many scholars have taken that literally at all, then or now. I can refer to the Good Samaritan as an example of how to act knowing full well that it was never determined that such a man or such an incident actually existed. It’s safe to say that Jesus made it up. It was a parable.

**If Jesus did not get history correct—why should I accept his statements about the Law and Prophets as valid? **

1) Was history the question or was Jesus’ truth the question? I’d say the latter was at issue. I don’t see a great error in not mentioning the literary writings. [I recommend posting a definition of what inerrancy means to you.]
2) You seem so sure that historical evidence, future historical evidence, will tell a far different tale, one that puts Moses into the realm of fiction. This is still a great assumption.

The truth is that Jesus used parables, and these stories are common in the Bible. By your measuring stick, wouldn’t these parables make the Bible errant because they were not factual? On those grounds, I would find the Bible indefensible. Most of the historical narrative in its pages would have to be considered fables until bit by bit it is backed up by archaeological discoveries. And then what? What if we find in the meantime that they are good fables? That we can apply their truths and see things fall into place around us?

I don’t see how anyone could walk in the light of Christianity while waiting for a more accurate historical confirmation of its principal facts. The fact is that the infallibility of Christ’s teachings are what attracts us to Christianity. Paul Tillich and Thomas Merton wrote volumes on Christianity yet not one book on archaeological data to back up the Bible’s historical claims. The answer as to why that is is simple; the evidence was in their own lives.

You and HIS are on an exciting journey to look for the historical roots of what the Bible claims. I’m with you 100% on that. It’s healthy for Christians to keep up with new discoveries both in science and archaeology. But we can’t make that the rock of our faith because it’s very crumbly. We don’t want to be the racehorse that gets stuck in the starting gate.
Blessings.

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